Irene:

Hi everyone. Thank you for joining WisdomTree's Office Hours on Digital Asset Tokenization, What You Need to Know, where you'll hear from, Matt Kress, Director Of Digital Assets And Advisor Innovation, Will Peck, Head Of Digital Assets, and Maredith Sapp, Director Of Business Development For Digital Assets. 

Matt Kress:

Thank you, Irene. Hello and welcome everyone. Thanks for being here and joining us today. If you're not familiar with our Digital Asset Office Hour Series, we host them one to two times a month with the goal of breaking down the complex world of digital assets and blockchain technologies in simple to understand and communicate topics and discussions.

Today we are discussing tokenization. Could it be the future of the financial services industry? Many people have heard of words like crypto, Bitcoin, Ethereum, blockchains, but few understand what tokenization is and how it's different from the traditional forms of asset ownership. By the end of today's discussion, our goal is for you to be more informed and have a better understanding of what tokenization is, its potential to transform various industries and reshape the global financial landscape, including potentially making asset ownership, trading, and investment more accessible, efficient, and secure for everyone.

Now, I want to be clear, we had some questions come in. Some crypto assets are tokens. The tokenization process goes beyond cryptocurrencies, encompassing a wide range of assets that can be represented digitally on blockchain networks, technologies. Today's discussion is not focused on single crypto assets at all. We're not going to dive deep into those. Today's discussion is focused on the process of converting real world assets into digital tokens on a blockchain, enabling increased transparency, liquidity, and standardization. You don't need a deep understanding of blockchain technologies to follow along, but I do want to really quickly set a high level baseline understanding for you.

So tokenization takes place on a smart contract blockchain. Unlike payments focused blockchains where you're only sending and receiving wallet addresses in the amount of the transaction, smart contract blockchains enable programmable code to be added, publicly verified, and executed when certain triggers are met. So this enables an issuer to create a token on a smart contract blockchain, which represents a digital or a physical asset. We'll dive deeper into that today.

Like Irene said, use the Q&A feature, please. If we can't get to it live, we'll push it to the end in Q&A. And if we run out of time, we'll make sure that we follow up and answer your question, or use it to have a future topics for discussions. If you do listen to podcasts, and you're looking for more resources and more in-depth education, then check out the Crypto Clarified Podcast. It's on any major podcast network by a couple other WisdomTree colleagues, Ben Dean and Jason Guthrie. So it's the Crypto Clarified Podcast.

Before we begin, I want to remind you this presentation today is for informational purposes only. It should not be construed as investment or legal advice, investment recommendations, or an offer or solicitation to purchase or sell any products or services including digital assets or securities. Without further ado, I'm excited to introduce two people that I get the honor of working with every day, and I'm excited to share their expertise on the topic. So Will Peck, head of digital assets at WisdomTree, and Maredith Sapp, director of business development digital assets at WisdomTree as well. So Will, to kick it off, at high level, what is WisdomTree working on in the tokenization and digital asset space? Can you give us a brief understanding?

Will Peck:

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Matt, and great to be with everyone this afternoon. So WisdomTree has been a fairly early mover, especially from the kind of traditional finance asset management side in terms of trying to explore, find out, and actually put products out that embrace kind of this digitization tokenization technology that we've seen develop over the past time.

I like to review it in terms of thinking about two major trends that we've really seen over the past 10 plus years in financial services. The first is really ETFs and index investing. Obviously we're WisdomTree, we're about ETFs, Modern Alpha indexing, and the like. And that indexing really goes back to WisdomTree's core when it was founded 15-ish years ago. And obviously when WisdomTree was founded, there was something like $300 billion in the ETF structure globally. Today that number is over $9 trillion. So clearly massive amount of growth in ETFs. That's a story that everyone on this call knows.

When you point to, well, why did ETFs and kind of index investing broadly take off in such a major way? It's really ETFs are a market structure. There are market structure innovation over mutual funds that existed in the past. Pointing to three things in particular that are relevant for this conversation of why ETFs might be better than mutual funds. Transparency, liquidity, and standardization. So transparency, unlike with mutual funds, you actually know what you own. When you look at ETFs, you can see the holdings on a daily basis and understand what's actually backing up these funds instead of needing to trust a manager who's putting together the portfolio for you.

Liquidity, obviously intraday liquidity is available with ETFs, not with mutual funds. And standardization, which is I think a key but kind of underappreciated point, it's just the idea that all you need to own an ETF is a brokerage account. In the past you had kind of bespoke mutual fund financial advisor relationships. It wasn't exactly very clear to somebody on the outside how you could buy one of these assets. And then here come ETFs, and all of a sudden you can own a bar of gold, or Indian equities or whatever it might be, all within the same structure within a brokerage account. So those are all the reasons that ETFs have been so successful, and we actually think kind of previews a bit why we think tokenization could be that next structure and kind of next market innovation technology going forward.

The second kind of major trend that I'd point to is blockchain and crypto assets. So obviously everyone's familiar with Bitcoin, now Ether as well. And if you look back at the Bitcoin white paper back in 2008, it's actually pretty remarkable when you look back on it today in terms of how it described this, as I see it, a peer-to-peer settlement now. And that's actually one of the first kind of times you can really see where financial assets have moved in this peer-to-peer standardized way, peer-to-peer settlement. Which is very different than how existing securities markets or asset markets work, which typically have a central clearing party, peers need to come to that place to try and trade, and that settlement doesn't exist like that. So it's a really big market structure innovation in terms of how financial assets can be traded and settled.

So we've looked at both these trends and thought, well, is this next innovation going to be kind of combining elements of both of these, and creating kind of digital asset tokens, digital tokens of traditional real world assets that can trade in similar ways like this? So that's kind of the direction that we're heading. So long answer there, Matt, but hopefully that sets it up well.

Matt Kress:

Yeah. No, that's really helpful. I know a lot of people here, there's a lot of advisors on the call, a lot of people working at advisory firms or related institutional firms as well, so they get a lot of that background, but it's just helpful breaking it down and helping just set that baseline in understanding more. I appreciate that, and I think it's great just to start off with that. So Maredith, I want to ask you, and then we could dive into it and jump around too. But Maredith as one of the key team members in partnering with other firms, what have you been hearing from institutions and other firms as they're starting on their journey of understanding and tokenizing assets?

Maredith Sapp:

Sure, sure. And thanks again Matt for having us. Really happy to be here. So for us, it's interesting because the landscape is really far and wide for the firms that are engaging in this space. So whether it's, like you mentioned folks from RIAs and wirehouses and banks, the so-called traditional finance or trad-fi players to more decentralized or de-fi companies including blockchain networks like Stellar or Avalanche or Polygon, there's really two main themes that emerge from every single conversation we're having.

The first is how can we make our interactions with our clients and our customers better? This could be cost, this could be liquidity, this could be timing, but then also how can we make our operations and processes better, either internally, or also with external partners. Also related to cost and time efficiencies. And then the third one, which I think is the most fun and we spend a little bit of time talking about, is the holy grail. So how can we improve, and a lot of times, rebuild what we have today. So what's the ideal end state? How do we march towards that?

And the key here is that while everything can be tokenized, that doesn't mean it needs to be. So we're looking at use cases that really drive value for both institutions, and also the end client with our eye on how these incrementally can be added up into major transformations over time. So even though, and I was talking to someone earlier today, it could seem like a small change for right now, if you add up all those changes and all of those minor improvements, that creates a huge major transformation down the line, and that's really exciting.

Matt Kress:

Yeah. I love just that idea. Well, first of all, the two things you're talking about, if you can make something more efficient and make it cheaper, there's going to be people finding ways, and that's going to find its way as a technological advancement and move forward. But even just what you said, it's incrementally better. And that's something I want people to focus on and we could talk about in the discussion, and Will, I want to ask you some points on that too. But when we think about ChatGPT, a lot of people say, "Oh, this thing blew up. It's out of nowhere. This is the big thing." Well sure, that was kind of founded in, I think it was like 1952 or something like that, the first initial idea of what AI could be. And then in 1972, I think there was another thing published on it, working more forward on it.

So that wasn't yesterday. That wasn't even just as early or as late as Bitcoin, the white paper, Will, you mentioned as well. So I think that's an important part, Maredith, what you said, and I love that you pointed that way. It's just these incremental advancements are going to ultimately lead towards a bigger and more impactful change as well. So we talked about a couple of those fees, like reducing fees, or being more efficient. Will, you mentioned a few benefits earlier around ETF structure and token, leading towards tokenization as well. Can you dive deeper into what those were, and just a little bit more with them? And then Maredith feel free to add in as well.

Will Peck:

Sure thing. And they were three intentionally chosen characteristics of ETFs because I think they're applicable. Again, that was transparency, liquidity, and standardization. So just taking these one by one, I mean obviously with transparency, with the instance of an ETF, that refers to kind of the daily portfolio visibility of an ETF relative to what a mutual fund or closed in fund or other structure might have had. Which really allows market makers to maintain bid-ask spreads tight, kind of gives clients transparency into what's going on.

I think what's been interesting with blockchain and tokenization is the ability to bring that to another level where more and more market participants can have visibility and transparency in what's going on. And you might think, well, why is that necessarily valuable or important? And then you talk to whether it's large custody banks, investment banks, market participants who have to deal with reconciliations and other things like that where they don't know what's going on in a process. It's hard to marry up their books and records with other people's books and records. And it just ends up with a lot of inefficiency in the system. I'm sorry, that's my dog walking in. And so with that, that's obviously it has costs. It has costs that ultimately get borne by customers. So giving that transparency, that shared infrastructure of blockchain, should hopefully reduce a lot of this costs going forward.

The second one was liquidity. And so obviously pointed to an example of ETFs versus mutual funds trading on a market hours 9:00 to 5:00, or 9:00 to 4:00 basis really, versus end of day, once a day settlement. What you're seeing with kind of crypto assets, and thus tokenized assets, can be this 24/7, 365 peer-to-peer settlement where you can have liquidity that happens around the clock all the time. Now if you can concentrate that liquidity in terms of the right venues and get the most people participating in those, you could see further liquidity into that. Especially as you bring these markets more global, you can definitely see the potential for enhancements in liquidity beyond what exists today.

And the third point is standardization, which I think a point that's worth emphasizing. Again, ETFs, anything you want in a brokerage account. With a blockchain based token, I mean all it takes is a smart phone. You could have a similar pattern towards any sort of asset that could be underlying it. Now there's lots of detail that needs to get inserted in there around regulation and structure and things like that. But just that concept of I have a representation of an asset and a way to hold that asset in a very user-friendly, convenient way, I think it's a really powerful concept. And that's something that, I'm not saying it's present today, but over time, if you look at 10, 15 years in terms of as this technology evolves, I think will be more and more important.

Matt Kress:

Yeah. I think that makes sense. Just those three, they make a lot of sense. Maredith, you talk to a lot of firms. How are they thinking of those three different points of the benefits Will was talking about, and how are they thinking about it and navigating that kind of in your discussions and looking forward?

Maredith Sapp:

Sure. And it's an interesting point because there is this real focus on real world asset tokenization as you mentioned. So meaning tokenizing real estate, securities, art, real world things that have representations on the blockchain, and working towards this ideal state as Will talked about of transparency and settlement, but also having on and off ramps into the real world. And I think this is something that people also think, oh, it's just on the blockchain. The whole purpose is to also be able to come on and off into it.

And beyond transparency and liquidity, and I think Will's absolutely right, another one or piece of this I would add too is the fractionalization of assets. And I think this is novel as well. Think about being able to own a fifth of a house, a piece of artwork, a private equity fund. That's a big one that we've heard about. Even a Bitcoin. That's really interesting and potentially game changing. And even there has been a few examples of private market funds being issued with much lower minimums than what we see in traditional assets today.

So I think that's where a lot of firms are trying to think about how can they rethink their business model to provide more access, to provide more standardization. But even just on the backend processing, as Will mentioned, not having to reconcile 10 different reports, not having to put out 10 different forms using different oracles, what have you, how can we make the processes better?

One other piece though that I would add to this, going away from those three that Will talked about, there's also non-finance aspects. So thinking about NFTs. That I just want to bring up because I think it's an important point on the identity and the security piece of this because you say, okay, so how are we going to know that one big custody bank is talking to another? What about privacy? What about security? This is something that's brought up a lot with the firms that I've been talking to.

It's cool to think about, well, how could an NFT be your ID? Could be your passport, a virtual passport per se. Think about everything from a concert ticket to a birth certificate could be tokenized, and could have some sort of utility that might be better utilized or served on chain. So this whole notion of on chain identity also is an interesting one to pair with tokenization on the investment side. So I think both of those two concepts are being talked about more and more interchangeably, which I think is very cool and lends itself to mitigating some of the questions that people have about the transparent aspect of blockchain and how that can be resolved.

Matt Kress:

Yeah, that's a great point. Even just thinking of identity, a lot of people hear NFT and think of art and that whole thing that created a big kind of run, and then it kind of fizzled out, and it's still around. But I think that's a really fascinating use case. And that's something that really gets me excited about the future of just all these technologies coming together. I personally even think some of the big social media networks with a lot of their verification now, there's all this room and all this progression around deep fakes and just the ability to spin up 1,000 pieces of content with one prompt using AI and these different things, and that's only on our personal social level of these verification points.

Now when it gets to financial markets and transactions, that's even more needed. It's so much more important as part of that. Will, do you have anything to add? I mean, you have a million things to add. You're talking to everyone all day at the really high level when it comes to what a lot of firms and people you're talking to, how they're thinking of the three different things, and especially things like settlement times, the impact that could have.

Will Peck:

I mean it's been talked about more today than it ever has been. I mean, I often comment that when I kind of stepped into this role two years ago, I was one of very few heads of digital assets amongst traditional firms. And then today that's very much not the case. I mean literally every big bank or asset manager has a head of digital assets. Just very different than it was in the past. I mean especially now with the pullback in crypto prices broadly, a lot of the sentiment and focus has shifted towards what are the potential market structure benefits? Which some of us have been working on for some time now.

So I mean when you're sitting here today, and we've been working on this for a couple years, and then you hear Larry Fink going out and saying he thinks tokenization of securities is going to be the future, certainly shows one sign that we're very much on the right path as a firm in terms of working on this.

And then now it's just got to be going out and actually demonstrating the value to customers of this, which I think gets lost a lot in some of the conversation about this. Where people are focused on cool things about it, et cetera, but without really like, well, we got to get customers to actually use it. And maybe they are not comfortable using a MetaMask wallet. And so there's a lot of things you got abstract away to make sure that you can actually demonstrate the benefits of doing this. And I think that's what we're on the journey of to prove out.

Matt Kress:

Yeah, I love that. And just use cases, there's two things that I'm asked more frequently about than anything else. So first is regulation, the second is use cases. I need to put that in my background or something. You may not notice it. That's something that's not talked about. And Will, that's a big thing that I know you focus on too. Maredith, we've talked about it a bunch. But blockchain rails don't mean it's going to be front and center, and you have to figure out this really hard copy paste this exact password, move something here, do something here. You might not notice it. It's going to be integrated. And that's something that I'm sure a lot of people here get that are listening and watching kind of understand that. But that's a really important part of when you think about the future of the rails and impact, is may not notice it. It might not be right front and center. Go ahead, Will. Sorry.

Will Peck:

No, I think that's just really important. I completely agree. And I mean we talk a lot about the infrastructure of this and stuff, but the average consumer or the average person does not care. They just want to know, does it work better, faster, cheaper for me? And that's what needs to get proven out by this technology. And that's the bet that we're making that it will. So I agree. I think people thinking about this in terms of wallets and crypto and stuff just isn't to anyone's benefit. And it's really about do these rails kind of equate to better outcomes for financial customers?

Matt Kress:

Yeah, that's a great point. So we haven't gotten specific yet. We haven't really dug and said, what can you tokenize? We talked about it at a high level. Do either of you want to tackle and jump onto that first? I could add some points here or there. But when you think about just the traditional side, not NFTs, and I mean that's a whole different ball of wax, whatever you want to say, what can you tokenize? Let's chat about some of the traditional assets that are out there and it's possible.

Will Peck:

Yeah, maybe I'll start. I think, well first of all, the one that everyone, you forget about, it's actually easy, it's like this idea of stablecoin, right? So I actually think it's been one of the under talked about kind of stories in finance of the past few years. Where about four years ago, there was essentially no assets in stablecoins, right? And then you sit here today, and even with all of this crypto market volatility and stuff and everything going on, there's still $130 billion sitting in this new structure with very little regulation, kind of some sketchy players involved. But there's clearly a demand, and that demand has stayed up even as the rest of the crypto market has fallen quite a bit. So you're starting to see in different emerging market countries and the like where people are using this as a true store of value, a way to store their value in dollars that are held as blockchain based tokens.

It's really just a new form of e-money that uses this public infrastructure. So I kind of tend to point to that as this is the first example of tokenization of a real world asset as a dollar. There's a lot of regulatory and legal structuring considerations that go into it. And one stablecoin that you may think is a dollar does not equal another stablecoin that you think is a dollar. So there's definitely some implications there. But I like to point to that one initially.

Which kind of sets up, and again, all of this is structured dependent, you could create a token representing any asset. You just need to have the confidence and certainty that there's going to be somebody standing behind it who's saying these AirPods, the token saying these AirPods are actually the AirPods. So that's kind of a silly example, but you see that in lots of cases where people might say, "Oh, I've tokenized this thing and this that thing." You just want to make sure that there's actually a regulatory framework and a financial services firm kind of standing behind that because there always does need to be that connectivity between the real world and this digital world. There's no way you can prove that beyond having trust in the institution that's issuing the asset.

So a long way of saying, I mean you can essentially tokenize everything. What people have been doing initially, including WisdomTree, is things like commodities. Where you have real world assets like a gold bar or silver bar. People could do it with different things, oil or whatever it is, where you can issue essentially a title to those instruments that can be held in this format. So that's like a tokenized real world asset.

Matt Kress:

Yeah, I love that point specificity on it. Maredith, go ahead. 

Maredith Sapp:

I was going to say, and it's to the point about small incremental steps towards that end goal, talking about the true liquidity, the true settlement times, and the improvements there.

But then also even on the institutional side, thinking about reserve and capital management, thinking about these stablecoin reserves that Will alluded to. They have large amounts of effectively cash that need to be managed. They're looking for a yield too. There are all of these crypto yield or earn programs that were out there last year. Now a treasury yield is really something that could be comparable and it's a real world asset. So there's actually been a lot of parallels as well as treasuries have picked up in the yield front that have been a good mirroring to what we saw last year with some of these crypto programs as well. So it's a good evolution into more of the real world assets and bringing those more on the chain as well.

Matt Kress:

Great, thank you. Yeah, so one question came in. I want to kind of push that to the end when we're done talking about a few of these things. Appreciate the question coming in around on blockchains. Definitely interesting. So we talked about a lot, as we talked about benefits, we talked about three different areas. I want to stick around for a little bit longer. We talked about the good stuff now. What are some headwinds? Will and Maredith, what are some different kind of headwinds or things that, either us or other firms, are having to overcome and working to overcome when it comes to making these in incremental moves and steps forward?

Will Peck:

One thing that's been interesting has been this idea of blockchain for enterprises has been around for a few years now. There's kind of this wave of companies that got funded by a bunch of banks building these big private blockchains just focused on these enterprise use cases, where they didn't have the same kind of shared standards across different institutions. So one thing that I'm certainly monitoring in the industry is WisdomTree doing its own thing over here, and then is Goldman Sachs doing its own thing over here? And then is JP Morgan doing its own thing over here? And that's something that I think really needs to get broken down in order for the true benefits of this, which is shared infrastructure. That you know I can talk to these other firms just using this shared infrastructure as opposed to all having our own MongoDB kind of that can't talk. So that's something that I'm monitoring and interested in, concerned about, and making sure that we kind of take full advantage of this as an industry to deliver better outcomes.

Matt Kress:

Yeah. That's for sure.

Maredith Sapp:

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I mean that gets into the private permission blockchain versus public permission list blockchains. Definitely something to keep our eye on for sure. But I'd love to hear too, Matt, from your side, what are you hearing from advisors and also from maybe even just beyond, what do you think are some of the benefits, but also the headwinds as well?

Matt Kress:

Yeah, especially from advisors, I'd say the biggest headwinds is just the regulation question, is clarity. And that's something that is continuing to be a battle. You see new headlines on that every day. But then use cases. So the benefits are really coming down to once on a crypto 101 or crypto 201 presentation for advisors or advisors and their clients, once there's a basic understanding of the blockchain, use cases, how this can work, how it can move forward, the next question is always, oh, so how do I invest at that? Or how do I think about investing in it, or what does that look like?

And once there's a base level of understanding, it's not really more questions and areas. It's focused specifically on, okay, well how? How do we do this? Now, which it gets really fascinating and parlays into some of the different things we're working on at WisdomTree, right? Headwinds, until there's clarity there, there's always going to be that aspect.

I think the global part is interesting when it comes to benefits. So last Office Hours, we had Mirva on over in Finland. She's our Director of Research On Digital Assets. And she was looking at a 2023 market outlook. And a big thing that she was focusing on is there's a lot of clarity and just uncertainty in the US, but there are other countries who are now saying, you know what? We're stepping up and we actually want to fully embrace this right now. And so a lot of times we get very kind of narrowed down in the US. But blockchains don't need, and this is a great question that came in, blockchains don't need the US approval to operate. They could operate in different ways. The rails can operate in different countries. I mean not different ways, in different countries. It's working.

And that's kind of that original belief that kind of started and kicked off this whole thing is that the US will eventually get there, and that'll be great, but other countries are stepping in and saying, yeah, we want to fully embrace it. How can we do that? Which is fascinating. So I want to ask the one question that came in so far. So who owns the blockchain per se? I know, Maredith, you talked about private permission, public permission lists. Are there going to be globally competing blockchains between countries?

Will Peck:

I think that's a great question, I'll just jump in and start. So I think of blockchains, really any database is like a spectrum. On one side you might have something like Bitcoin, which is in the truest sense, fully permissionless, really decentralized. No one actually has control over the Bitcoin blockchain. It's the maintenance of it is done by miners who earn a fee. And we don't need to get into all of that. But that's one example of something that's very decentralized and very permissionless.

And the other side, you could have something like a fully private permission blockchain, which is just run by, you could just have one institution, one person, who could spin it up. They could be the only validator on that network. And it looks a lot like just a other centralized database, but it kind of uses similar technology. So if you think about that as a spectrum, I find most things kind of fall along that spectrum where you might have something more like Solana, which has less decentralization, still a permissionless blockchain, but is kind of on the spectrum within there. And then you're getting, if you go further right on that, you could be with public permission blockchains where, and again, 2D axis isn't necessarily the best way to describe it, but I do think getting the idea that these aren't all just one or the other, and that there are gradients along it is very important.

So I mean, who owns the blockchain? It kind of depends on what blockchain you're talking about. Bitcoin, no one owns Bitcoin per se. But refer to other countries. I mean, if the digital yuan is kind of done on a Chinese version of a database or blockchain, the CCP owns that blockchain. So that's a very different example of who can do that technology. So could there be competing blockchains over time? I mean, absolutely. There already are today for different use cases. And could you see countries creating different things? I mean, you certainly could, and you're already starting to see that now with what China's doing with the digital yuan, and what other countries might want to do with their own CBDCs, even if they're more purpose-built blockchains, and not for general purpose use cases like Ethereum might be.

Maredith Sapp:

And even just to go back to the regulation piece, and I'll tie this into the KYC question that was just asked as well, just within the last 24 hours, Germany and Japan came down with regulation, or were talking about regulation related to securities that would be on a blockchain. So then there's also the global aspect of regulation per where securities are issued, where their prospectus is filed, and then how they're treated from there. So very interesting.

But to Will's point about blockchains too, there's also blockchains that then are permissioned, meaning you have to go through a KYC process to participate. So that's where KYC can fall into it. And I think a lot of the regulation around that will evolve over time. But how we're thinking about it is really focused on the rules that exist today we are abiding by in the blockchain space as well.

So, I think there are different ways that that's going to be facilitated, and there is some regulation right now in the US around that. But around that digital identity, how is that then put onto chain? It has to be off chain to start. Everyone needs a driver's license, but that could evolve over time. That could be something really cool on chain. Many, many moons down the line though, probably.

Matt Kress:

Yeah, I think that's interesting. And doubling down on what both of you all were saying about use cases in blockchains, if you think about just global adoption and global scale of any of this. If you think of the Visa network, just payments, Visa network, they transacted around 65,000 transactions a second. So different blockchains are going to have to do different things, whether it's KYC, AML, or scaling or whatever. Bitcoin can manage about seven transactions a second right now. That's not anywhere near what's needed to handle Visa's level of transactions. Or sorry, Visa's capable of 65, they average around 8,000. But then you have some other ones that can handle thousands, or up to dozens and hundreds of thousands of transactions a second, and then cost.

So, I think we're going to start seeing all these different blockchains. And we see it today exactly what Will and Maredith you were just saying is different use cases are popping up. And then there's different, you have the layer one blockchain, then a layer two that kind of sits on top of that for scaling, and different use cases or on-ramps, off-ramps. And so I think we're going to keep seeing a lot more of that moving forward.

And I know we're close on time, and we're getting to wrap up.  Will, anything else, or anything else to add on that at all? Good.

Will Peck:

No. No, nothing to add.

Matt Kress:

Okay. Awesome. So we talked about the basis of tokenization. We broke down understanding on different blockchains, use cases, and diving deeper. Maredith and Will, thank you so much for being here, sharing your expertise, and really just being such great colleagues and coworkers to work with. And we look forward to you joining us on the next Digital Asset Office Hour Series.